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EP 233: Trademarking 101 with Keren de Zwart

business education May 24, 2021

There are a lot of fun topics to discuss in business - sales and profits, marketing and product development...but what’s not so fun? 


The legal stuff, specifically, trademarking and even more specifically, getting slapped with a cease and desist for infringing on a trademark. 


Thankfully, my guest on today’s episode actually makes the topic of trademarking approachable, understandable and dare I say, fun (especially when you learn what you need to cover your brand’s behind legally)!


Joining me on this episode is Keren de Zwart, who after working for 10 years in the corporate arena, left to fill the legal gap for entrepreneurs and small businesses by replacing the outdated billable hour model with flat-fee pricing. 


With a decade of experience in corporate transactions, Keren has worked with every type of business: from side hustlers and businesses raising millions of dollars to taking companies public. 


And today, she helps entrepreneurs get #legallylegit through her law firm, Not Your Father’s Lawyer (that name alone should tell you that she makes the topic of trademarks anything but boring!)


If you’ve been putting the topic of trademarking on the back burner for your business because you just don’t want to deal with the legalese, or you didn’t know trademarking is kind of a big deal in business, even if you’re small, this episode is a must-listen. 


In this episode, you’ll learn:


  • What a trademark is and how they function in the world of business and commerce 
  • Understanding the different classes of trademarks and answering the questions: when should we get one? And why does it matter?
  • The various nuances of trademarks and how they differ on the federal and state level
  • Keren’s top tips for getting a trademark, what to expect, and how to navigate the process whether you’ve infringed on a trademark or other brands are infringing on yours

References Mentioned in Episode #233: Trademarking 101 with Keren de Zwart




As a thank you for being a loyal listener to the Spa Marketing Made Easy podcast and for helping us to reach more aestheticians working on growing their businesses and creating a life they love, we have created a free resource portal just for you! 


It’s totally free to join, and for every 25 reviews we get on iTunes, we’ll add a new training video, PDF, tracker, or other high-value resource to help you grow your aesthetic business!


If you have yet to leave a review, click here to leave one on iTunes, and click here to access the free resources already unlocked


Episode Transcript


Have you heard about the free Spa Business Bootcamp happening May 31st to June 4th in the Spa Marketing Made Easy Facebook group?



Each day, we're going to take a deep dive into the four phases of the Growth Factor Framework, your sales process, your social media, your systems and your structure before wrapping up on the final day with how to scale this bootcamp is a must for spa owners who are truly looking to build a company and a brand not just create a job for themselves. Click the link in the show notes to get registered and I can't wait to see you in the group. 



You're listening to the Spa Marketing Made Easy podcast where we share simple proven strategies just respond to street professionals to help you get more clients in the door so that you can create a life you love. I'm your host, Daniela Woerner, licenced aesthetician and spa marketing strategist. 



Hello, my dears, Daniela here and welcome to another episode of the Spa Marketing Made Easy Podcast. Now I'm really excited for today's guest because we're going to be talking about one of the most overlooked parts of business, and that is protecting your intellectual property through trademarking. 



Now, imagine starting your business working so hard to get clients in the door, finally hitting that six figure milestone, and then bam, one day you get a letter in the mail that says you're infringing on someone's trademark. And you've got to stop using the name of your business immediately. Could you imagine the cost associated with new signage, new website, new marketing materials, all of the things and worse yet, what have you invested thousands in packaging for your private label line, only to find out that legally, you cannot use it anymore. This is the risk that you're taking when you're not trademarking your business. 



Now, I don't want to totally freak you out, because many business owners don't start this process until they have a proven concept. But in my opinion, this is one of the first things you do once you start generating consistent revenue in your company. Not when you know not in that space, where you're like what I'm finally paying myself what I desire, but actually creating consistent revenue. And if you are doing a private label line, you know, I would at least do the search on the name of your brand before you invest in any labels or packaging, because that is the last thing that you want to deal with. Now, when I first started Addo Aesthetics, we went through the trademarking process, and it took close to three years to go through the entire thing, the officially registered have my trademark all of that. 



But as our business grew, we saw the need to trademark our programs and even our podcast. And Keren and attorney who was referred to me from a close friend, is who we brought in to help with the trademarking of our podcast and programs. And I'm really excited to have her as a guest today to shine some light on this topic. So let me go ahead and read you her bio, and then we'll jump right into that episode. 



So after working for 10 years in the corporate arena, Keren had a desire to fill the legal gap for entrepreneurs and small businesses by replacing the outdated billable hour model with flat fee pricing. With a decade of experience in corporate transactions, Keren has worked in every type of business, from side hustlers to raising millions of dollars and taking companies public. Today, she helps entrepreneurs get legally legit through her law firm, not your father's lawyer. She lives in Orange County, California with her husband and two children. So Keren is super easy to talk to. I loved working with her on this process. And I'm super excited to share this interview with you. So without further ado, let's go ahead and play that interview. 



All right, Karen. Welcome to the Spa Marketing Made Easy Podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. I think that trademarking our topic of the topic of the moment is something that's really not talked about enough. It's kind of one of those like boring topics, but it's not boring at all. If you get a cease and desist letter, or you get something that's like, like the risk benefit of going through trademarking and is just so huge. And so many spa owners don't even know what it is or don't even know what they should be trademarking or the different classes or what the process is. And so I really, I'm so excited to have you on the show and just shine some light, shine some clarity on to this topic.



Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. And I agree, people think of trademark is kind of boring or unimportant, but it's a really important part of running a business. 



So let's just start off by defining what a trademark is the different classes like, because I know for me in my business, I trademarked my business as one of the first things that I did. But it was a new, it was kind of like a learning curve for me as we added different programs in the podcast, right like trademarking the podcast. So for a spa, you want to trademark your brick and mortar, but then you also if you're developing your own private label line, or you know, those types of things. So how do we understand number one, what a trademark is? And number two, what the heck is supposed to be trademarked?



That's a great question. And you kind of hit the nail on the head there, which is, I mean, ensure a trademark is a set of intellectual property rights for a it's, you know, a product or service. And it's basically to identify the origin of goods or services. So the idea is, you know, how can a consumer or the public know who owns this product or service and obviously, you can think of it in the most obvious ways, like, you know, I can't start a company called like, Nike sneakers, because I can confuse a consumer about, you know, is this the Nike? Or is this not the Nike? and, and so the idea is to give an owner of goods and services the right to protect their brand, you can think of a trademark, there's a couple of ways that you can trademark obviously, a word mark is just the basic word. So the word Nike, for example, is trademarked as just the basic words, no, no specific font or colors or anything, but you also can trademark designs, or logos, any sort of design, icons that people might use. 



So there's actually two different kinds of trademarks. And you can do either or both. So sometimes, when people start out at that's a big question, because obviously, it's two different, you know, costs, it's two different, you know, the research to make sure that the logo isn't infringing is different than the research to make sure that the word mark isn't infringing. And what I like to tell people, when they're just starting out is, a lot of it depends on how you are marketing your business. So some people or I would say a lot of people have the actual words of their trademark brand in the logo. So if Spa Marketing Made Easy is in, you know, stylized form, obviously, you have that logo, and you can go out and protect that. But at the beginning, when you're just starting out, and you only maybe have resources to go one way or the other, if your logo has the words in it, then you know, if it's just a stylized version of the words, then you can trademark the word. And sometimes that's better. Because when you're just starting out, maybe you change your mind, and you want to change the logo. And if you trademark the logo itself, you're only protecting it in that version. So if you change your logo down the road, you have to, obviously, trademark that. So that's something to consider, as well. 



And you talked a little bit about the classification. So basically, there are a number of different international classifications, which are basically a kind of a standardized set of classes that things fall into. And they're kind of like half products and half services. And this is one of the most important pieces of trademark law because where you trademark it and the description that you give it can change fundamentally change what is and is not protected. So a great example, like you said is you have a brick and mortar retail, you know, space, but maybe you have a product line, those are two completely different trademark classes. Maybe you have an e-commerce store, that's another one. And so you have to think kind of strategically about, you know, what am I doing? Where is the protection? I mean, in a perfect world, you protect yourself across all of those categories, but small business owners often have you know, limited resources and you kind of have to think through where, where are my biggest exposure points and go in that order of priority.



Now when you're trademarking is this, you said there's international trademarks. For a brick and mortar spa, you know, there's a lot of like, common names that are used, you know, if it's just like the relaxation spa, right? Like, I don't know if anyone has that name. But if I had the relaxation spa in Washington, DC, and I had the relaxations and there was another one in Texas. Would the trademark print, is it per state? Or is it like in the entire United States? No one can use this name for a brick and mortar spa.



This is a fantastic question. So technically speaking to register a trademark with the United States Patent and Trademark Office to register as used, there's, we'll get to this a little bit. But as used in commerce as in today, it's offered in commerce, it's actually in interstate commerce. 



So to register a trademark federally, it has to be across state lines. So an easy way to think of that is obviously on an e-commerce site, people can, you know, access your site from wherever they can shoot, you know, you can ship your products to wherever that is interstate commerce, and can be subject to a federally registered trademark. However, if you have a brick and mortar in Washington, DC, and that's all you have, and you're selling products there, but maybe not on e-commerce site, you're actually you can't qualify for a registered trademark with the USPTO. But every state has their own state registration. And that would be a great option for things like, you know, a brick and mortar that you're only if you have multiple, you know, multiple places, but they're only in state, that's a great option for people. If they're not, I mean, today, so many people have something online that they probably meet the interstate commerce rules. But that's something to think about. For example, if you have a brick and mortar space, and you want to protect that name, then you might only be able to register it at the state level. Whereas you could register the e-commerce site, for example, you know, on the on the USPTO, which gives you the federal registration.



Now what happens, if you start your business, and you're rockin and rollin, you're going into year one, you're generating six figures, you're super excited. And then all of a sudden, you find out you didn't trademark your business and you're infringing on someone else's name?



Yes, this is a very common problem. I mean, people get excited about their business, they're focused on the important things like getting set up finding a place to lease, you know, getting clients. And it kind of falls on the backburner. So in a perfect world, you do some of this research upfront, but it very often doesn't happen. And the worst case scenario, obviously, is getting a cease and desist. 



So there's kind of two versions that happens that I see one, of course, is you get the scary letter from somebody's attorney that says you're infringing on our trademark. And the other is kind of right before that, where somebody says, like, I just found out that there's somebody else in this space, and they have the same name, what do I do, and in both cases, there's obviously the risk of infringement. So a cease and desist letter can kind of run the gamut, depending on, you know, how big the trademark owner is, how, you know, proficient, their attorney is in intellectual property law, and how big you are, because obviously, the more the larger you are, in terms of visibility and revenue, the more likely they're going to come harder on an infringement case. So the cease and desist letter can run from, Hey, stop using this immediately to, not only do we want you to stop using this, we want an accounting of the last, you know, two years that you've been using this mark, and we're going to seek damages for basically whatever they, you know, whatever they can get from you. So, people are a little bit more aware of this in the copyright space. Because, you know, if you take like a picture from Google that's copyrighted, and you put it on your website, and somebody says, like, take it down, and you owe us $5,000, taking it down does not prevent the infringement. You know, so when you think about it, you have to kind of ask yourself, what is the risk of, of doing this and the risk is that the more likely the consumer was confused, and the more likely it was on purpose, right, like on the spectrum, the more likely you're going to end up having to pay a lot of money to resolve it. Most of the time, these infringement cases are not like that. It's not like Oh, I like that spawning. I'm gonna take it and then I'm gonna run, you know, run with it. It's, it's tends to be more on accident. So typically, a cease and desist says, stop immediately. 



And sometime,



which still can be costly, right? If you have to redo your I mean, just thinking about signage, right? If you change the name of your spa, if you have to change, like all your emails, your brand and website like that, that still is a pretty hefty chunk of change.



100% and I mean, I always tell people don't automatically assume if you get a cease and desist that you have violated a trademark because there are people who are more likely to go after things that are either similar or the same. A lot of people may not have a registered trademark, there's a number of reasons Why but maybe they don't have a registered trademark, but they they're telling you that you're they're violating common law trademark, which is possible you we all own rights in our brands from its first in time concept, but your rights are extremely limited without a registered trademark. So I always say if you do get it, like take a deep breath and reach out to an attorney, see what they say, sometimes it's just kind of like a bully who's pushing a little bit beyond the reach of their registered trademark or their their rights under trademark law. And that there's, you know, you don't have to go through that whole rebranding without, you know, without consulting with an attorney. 



But that is definitely, there's kind of the two worst case scenarios, obviously, the worst worst is that you have to change everything and potentially pay to get out of it. But that tends to really be more when things are done, kind of intentionally, and you but like you said, you know, rebranding, especially I mean, every if you've ever had to pay for a sign on a building, they're several $1,000. So that alone plus, again, redoing the website and the loss of your brand, you know that that...



 The goodwill that you've built with that name recognition.



Absolutely. So something that I tell people, because sometimes people freak out, like, Oh, my gosh, I didn't do this, what if I am, what do I do, even if you did it at the beginning, or if you didn't, I always say like, put it on your calendar, once a quarter, do a Google search, like see what's out there with your name or similar names, see what's out there, you know, on on social media, and number one that's important for yourself to protect your own brand, obviously, but also, it helps you kind of see what's out there and what other people are using in the industry to make sure that there isn't a problem, because it's so you know, if you got here to today, and there is and sometimes this happens, by the way that somebody says, Oh, my gosh, I did what you said, I went and searched. And it turns out, there's like, you know, a competitor of mine out of, you know, some other state that has 150,000 followers on Instagram, and I'm just little me, but then we go and we run a trademark search. And it's like, Well, to be honest, you've been using this mark longer, they don't have a registered trademark, let's file their trademark, and then we get to send them a cease and desist, you know, and so there are a lot of ways to kind of look at it and strategize, even if you didn't do it at the beginning.



Okay, so let's just clarify a little bit the difference between, you know, for your state trademark, the federal trademark, if you're a brick and mortar spa, versus having the product line versus having the e-commerce store, because there's so many different variations, if you are the relaxation spa, and you just have a section on your website, that is where to purchase products, that could essentially be a an extension of your current business. 



But what I'm seeing a lot of spa owners do with the especially with, you know, 2020, and all of the, you know, COVID, and all the things, they're starting their own skincare lines, which are essentially completely different businesses. 






So they're having, they would have to run a full separate trademark, likely in a different classification.



Right. So I mean, definitely in a different classification. So let's say you already have a trademark for your, you know, brick and mortar store, even if that's on the state level. So we kind of touched on that at the beginning, right is that anything that's an interstate commerce can and should be registered on the federal level, and you don't need to do a state level and a federal level trademark, there might be some strategic reasons. But rarely, if you can register at the federal level, that's usually what you're doing. If you want to do you know, a skincare line at the federal level, but you have this one brick and mortar in your state, that's probably going to be a state specific trademark, because again, the the actual spa services that are being provided only within state lines are not going to be subject to interstate commerce, trademarks under the federal protection. 



So you can have a trademark with the same name relaxation spa, let's say you get that, you know, within the state of Maryland, or whatever, and then you have the skincare line. Now you're going to register that with the USPTO. And it's going to be a completely different class. So when you register a trademark, there's two ways you can register it is already used in commerce, which is kind of what we're talking about, right? It's being sold in interstate commerce. 



The second piece is with an intent to use and the thing about an intent to use is that trademark laws can't just people can't just squat trademarks, right? So you can file an intent to use application. So if you think you have this great idea, and it's a competitive market, and you don't want somebody else to steal it, but you haven't launched yet, you can file it and get the process going, while you're kind of doing this, and then once you get the approval, then you have to, you basically have six months with some extensions to actually prove to the USPTO, that you use it in commerce, otherwise, it goes away and it's abandoned, then you don't have the right to the trademark. So if you file, you know, if you're setting up a vertical in your business, and you already in let's say, your, I guess this is all to say, let's say you are like, well, I don't have a trademark right now, I, you know, I want to do it for the my e-commerce site, but I'm also working on the skincare line. So maybe I want to do too, you can file one trademark where some of the classifications are used in commerce, and some are intent to use. And it basically kind of goes through this process where they'll approve the part, you know, that's, you kind of go through to the to get to the registration on the use and commerce, and then you have to kind of catch up with the, you know, with the intent to use stuff, but at least everything's kind of there. Like I said, it's a first in time concept. So obviously, if if you kind of wait on the registration, because you haven't launched it yet, but somebody beats you to the punch in terms of filing registration with the USPTO, it puts you in this position to like prove otherwise, which is effectively litigation, so it becomes costly, and then most people don't do it.



So logistically, how long does filing a trademark? Typically? I know, that's like a big question but



a really long time,



a really long time. How long does it take? How much does it cost? Like, what's the range of these types of things? 



Sure. So a trademark that doesn't have any issues whatsoever goes like this, you file the applicant. Well, your attorney or the platform you use or whatever you do does the research to to confirm that it's, you know, likely to be trade markable. Basically, that means number one, that there's no conflict, or no major conflict or a conflict, that's not kind of strong enough that you still want to pursue. 



Number two, that it's actually registerable. One of the things about it, and we kind of joke is we were talking about relaxation spa, which is there's like a spectrum of registrability with the trademark office and basically the more arbitrary or fanciful, which are the technical words, but the more arbitrary would be like Apple, right? You think of. 



Before Apple computers, nobody associated the word Apple with technology. So it's arbitrary, but it's a real word. It's just arbitrarily associated with that brand that that industry, obviously fanciful is something totally made up. And then it goes down the spectrum from you know, to things that are a little bit more descriptive. If it's descriptive, there supposed to be some kind of mental leap that people have to make. And then generic would be like, I can't just, I can't trademark Business Law Firm that's just generic, if there's nothing to it, descriptive could be more like relaxation spa, right? Like, it's pretty descriptive. It's almost generic, it's questionable about whether that could be registerable. So that whole process has to be done up front. 



 Then the second piece, obviously, as you file the application, and then it just sits there. And typically, an application has no issues is six months. And even now, just I think with COVID, and, you know, the examining attorneys are working from home and everything's I've never seen in 12 years, it take this long, but sometimes it takes six months even to be like assigned to an examining attorney. 



So six months to a year, longer if you have, you know, if somebody files an opposition, if they if the USPTO has an issue that you have to respond to. So the kind of the process is you file the application, it gets assigned to an examining attorney, they'll run their own search, if they don't have any conflicts with it, they will schedule it for publication in the Official Gazette, which is basically it's published in a searchable medium for 30 days so that if somebody out there wants to oppose it, they would file an opposition say like we oppose the this registration, because the USPTO isn't like going out on Google and looking at what's out there. They're only looking what's registered with the USPTO. But obviously, other people might have rights that they want to oppose, but it's their job to go out and pursue that. Then if no opposition gets filed, you wait and wait and wait. But eventually you get that notice of registration and that's when you get the you know, our with the circle symbol and you have your registered trademark. 



In between that what happens a lot is that the USPTO submits an Office Action, which is basically it could be anything from this is it registerable because there's a conflict too. We don't like the specimen you provide Or we want you to disclaim this word. So there's a lot of little or big issues that can come up in the process. Obviously, if they think that it's too similar to an existing trademark, then, you know, you're typically an attorney, because it requires, you know, case law and research that they respond and say, you know, here's all the reasons the factual and and kind of case precedent reasons why we don't think we don't agree, and you kind of try to overcome that. And that's kind of the process. But you do get to hold your spot in line, so to say, Correct, correct. And that's why we go back to that first in time concept, which is, even if you file you know, it's sometimes it takes people three years to get mark or five years because of whatever process they go through. But at the end of the day, they started it, you know, if they started it in 2015, and they don't get it till 2021, it's still theirs. And anybody in the process that had tried to, you know, come up with something similar, will still have, you know, that person will have superior rights to those later uses. 



Okay, so, what advice just in kind of wrapping this up, what advice would you give to someone? If they're looking for an attorney like you like you do trademarking? We'll share your information below. But what are they looking for in an attorney? What  questions are they asking what's important when trying to choose an attorney or a company to do trademarking with?



That's a great question. I personally believe and this is not just trademarking, this is any legal work is that you should really feel comfortable with your attorney, I think, you know, people have have, they're kind of it's like the caricature of an attorney. They're kind of like mean and grumpy and talk condescendingly to people. And I always say, you know, I have like, the legal knowledge, but you are the business owner, you have, you're the expert in your business. So I'm not going to tell you what to do, I need you to tell me what you do. And I'm just going to fill in the legal part, you know, and I think that that's really important to have somebody who's willing to listen to you to understand your business. And when it comes to trademarking, that's especially important, because like we said, the classifications really matter. And you want to make sure that you're covering yourself in the most kind of robust way so that you are protected in all of the verticals that you offer, and that you have, you know, the protections that you're seeking, when you apply. 



The second piece to that, obviously, is somebody who's familiar with trademark. And, you know, it's a complex area of law. And a lot of business attorneys do do trademark and other intellectual property work, but some don't. So it's important to understand, you know, do they file trademarks? Do they file them in your industry? Have they worked with people in your industry before, so that they really understand kind of what they're getting, and making sure that they have somebody that understands the industry and the business. And then I think the other piece to that which is kind of ancillary, but really important is there are a lot of platforms out there, like the legal zooms, and there's some kind of cheap, trademarking platforms that really are quite a bit more cost effective. And I get the question a lot like, what's, what do you get with a lawyer versus this? And the short answer is you don't get a lawyer when you work with those, they're algorithmically based. And if you have simple and straightforward trademarks, they're often a really good option, there's two problems to that, right. 



One is, you don't know if you're going to get the right protection, and you don't have the benefit of going back and forth and talking to somebody, you know, to make sure that everything's properly described, because the classifications there are kind of like pre approved ones, but you can also write your own if your, if yours doesn't really fit exactly into those. And so there's a lot of different pieces. And then the second piece is, what about, if you get an Office Action? Is that extra money? Or do you have to go now find a lawyer to do that, and all of that piece? So I think understanding kind of what you get in terms of cost, and how they're going to guide you through the whole process and not just filing the application, but you know, do they respond to the office actions? Is that additional cost? Or is it included in whatever fee you pay? You know, are they going to take you through the whole process? And and that's an important thing to consider?



I don't think we answered that question of what is the range of price?



Oh, so fees themselves, the actual USPTO filing fee is $250 per class and it can go up if you I said we could make these custom ones and the custom costs a little bit more because and they're also much harder to get approved. So you want if you can you want to fit into like the pre approved bubbles. But if you don't, then you definitely want to work with a trademark attorney who's familiar with it so that they can write you kind of a custom description that's going to get approved. So it's $250 to like $300 and you know, $50 per class. So again, if you have the brick and mortar, and then you have the, and I guess it's different with state, but you know, if you have a retail stores plus a skincare line plus an e commerce store plus a clothing line, right, whatever that that might be for different classes. So if you're filing for different classes, it's time to 250. So that's just the filing fee itself. 



In terms of the attorneys, it can range, I mean, the platform's can range from a couple 100 bucks. I mean, you know, big intellectual property firm is going to charge tens of thousands of dollars, a smaller firm is going to be more like in the, you know, maybe as low as 1000 as high as $5,000 range. But it really runs the gamut, I could probably find you a $500 attorney and a $50,000 attorney for the same work, you know.



 Yeah, I know, it's so it's hard with legal, but it's one of those things like, I'm such a rule follower, I'm like, you know, I just want to make sure that it's done right, and my taxes are paid. So for me, it's like having that protection is just so so important because I don't even want to think about someone sending me a letter, like there's enough that we're doing to grow our business and serve our clients. But that's the last thing you want to be thinking about.



Yes. And, you know, I mean, people have different levels of risk tolerance. And so I think some people operate I mean, obviously, I'm a lawyer, so I'm risk averse by nature. So I'm also a rule follower. And, but but I work with a lot of people who have different levels of risk tolerance, and some people say, you know, I will, I'll kind of see what's out there myself in a in an informal way, and hope for the best. And some people say no way, this is one of the first things I want to invest in for my business.



I always tell people, you know, the more proprietary your your brand is, obviously, when you think about like a skincare line, and e-commerce that really is easy for people to kind of get in your space, you know, versus like a brick and mortar is going to be a little bit harder for somebody to like, show up across the street with the same or similar name, you know, that you're it's a little bit easier to be aware of that in the in the community, but online, it's a big, wide open space. And it's a little bit of the Wild West still. And so you know, that protection as you grow a brand and like you said, right, the cost of you know, changing a sign on the, we think it's expensive to change a sign on a brick and mortar building. But to change, like your packaging on 100,000 units of, you know, of inventory is significantly more expensive. So it...



Oh, 100%. So a little bit is that kind of that risk tolerance that you have, obviously, you know, it's one thing to have 5000 units of inventory and trying something out and kind of seeing what sticks, maybe that won't be as costly, as you know. And then a website might be not as costly. Maybe you don't have your own skincare line and you only sell third party sites and a website. rebranding isn't necessarily as costly from a from a financial standpoint, it can like we spoke about in the kind of the goodwill space be pretty costly to the brand and the business.



Very good. Share where our listeners can find you follow you get in touch with you.



Yes, you can follow my website and you can find me on Instagram, mostly @notyourfatherslawyer and, you know, happy to talk to people but there's a lot of free resources out there, myself and from others that you know, to make sure that people are getting the information that they need in terms of you know, starting and running their businesses.



Super, super helpful. Keren, thank you so much. We'll include the links below this episode so you can stay in touch with Keren you can learn about trademarking, decide if that's something that you want to do in your business. 



And if you have questions, be sure to head on over to the Spa Marketing Made Easy Facebook group and we'll catch you on the next episode. 



As always, if you want to keep the conversation going, I want you to head on over to the Spa Marketing Made Easy Facebook group. The number one free resource out there for aestheticians focused on business building. We've got weekly marketing tips, a monthly goal setting and planning session, monthly aesthetician business book club, plus a community of thousands of aestheticians committed to business building in the spa industry. I'll see you there.

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